Animals

I am glad that this video made you feel something, but what you may have missed, is that this blog treats vegetarians and meat eaters the same. You said "Go vegetarian" at the end, but the point of the blog was to treat vegetarians (not vegans) to be one and the same. Look at the title, and then re-read what it actually says. It is again, a sad reality to the cruelty of the meat industry, but the underlying message is about becoming vegan. If you read the related blogs, you'll see why.

The message of the video is something we should all see and "get". Because we cannot make everyone become vegan, we need to spend more energy on becoming less cruel. The suffering and abuse is what needs to stop. The killing of innocent animals is one thing, but the cruel ways of our society is what makes me so heartbroken. The fact that we allow them to suffer and feel that fear is what makes me want to fight for new laws and more control in this industry.

No, I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not defending vegetarians. I'm not defending meat-eaters. I'm just saying that we need to open people's eyes to the cruelty and abuse and get better regulations passed. the cruelty part stems from these slaughterhouses and ranches wanting to save money.

Lumping vegetarians into the same group as meat eaters again is a step backward. They are already "on the right track". Don't bump them off.

I hope that if you are a vegetarian or working toward that goal, that you can feel proud of that accomplishment. If going vegan is the next step, then "hats off to you". Giving up meat is the first step towards that lifestyle. Bringing awareness to the masses is always a step in the right direction. Share the video with everyone you know and watch the more gruesome ones when you can stomach it. Rent "Earthlings". It'll change your life.

Michele, I'm baffled by the way you take issue with posts such as this, or with my approach. I don't mean this to be rude, but it seems that you actually have missed the point here. This isn't just about being "less cruel" or about "better regulations"--there are those, including advocates of animal welfare, who would argue (obviously, I'm not one of them) that what we witnessed in this video didn't even warrant "cruelty."

What we witnessed here was an animal afraid, an animal who did not want to die, regardless of how "well" or poorly he was treated during his brief life, regardless of whether death was swift or not. And no improved regulations will change that, will change the inherently inhumane nature of killing an animal unnecessarily.

And that is the issue here--killing our fellow animals unnecessarily. And the reason that I address vegetarians as well as meat-eaters in these posts is that many vegetarians stop eating meat because they don't want animals to be killed for their palate, for their plate, and many, many vegetarians (I would argue the majority) just don't realize that vegetarianism requires constant needless killing too--killing of calves and cows for the dairy industry and killing of "spent" hens and baby male chicks for the egg industry.

This isn't about "bumping vegetarians off" the right track--it's about helping them progress along it.

I'm not going to write posts about slaughter and pretend that vegetarians are removed from it and that only meat-eaters bear responsibility. That's dishonest. Vegetarianism mandates the killing of chicks, hens, calves, and cows, and those animals' deaths are no less real and no less awful and no less unnecessary just because vegetarians may mean well.

I think many vegetarians see headlines about slaughter and killing and shake their heads, glad that they're not meat-eaters who contribute to all this. And that is why I will continue to point out, in posts and in headlines, that they're mistaken. People only realize if the information is out there and if they're told or exposed to it.

I was lacto-vegetarian for years, thinking I was doing the right thing.  I'd never eaten veal or lamb, thinking I had removed myself from the process.

It wasn't until I was 32 years old that it finally dawned on me that the milk had to be stolen from someone!  (Actually, breastfeeding my own baby opened my eyes to the heartbreak that is the dairy industry) And if I was truly going to live by my personal moral code - NO KILLING - then I had to take it to the furthest degree I could.  For me, that means veganism. 

Watching this video drives that point home even more - because I know what it's like to be a lacto-vegetarian and thinking that I was already doing enough.  Preaching veganism to a vegetarian isn't that big of a stretch - they are already choosing to live by a set of ethics very closely aligned with veganism, they (and me, too!) need to hear from vegans that it's no more difficult to be vegan, but it's a whole lot more gratifying.

Sorry that I baffle you, Stephanie. Again, to exclude people who love animals and want work towards their protection or anti-cruelty and abuse, but are not vegans yet, I was trying to show that the choice of words can either make a person feel welcome, or not. We won't go there again. You said "vegetarians and meat-eaters alike should pay equal attention", not to mention the title itself.

I won't go back and forth about this subject again. Been there-done that. I think that you missed my point about labeling and exclusion in my other comments.

I have to disagree about improving regulations making a difference. My former resident animal shelter euthanizes hundreds, if not thousands of animals. They used to throw the live animals on top of one another and gas them out back in a big pile. Many did not die for days and were buried alive. We fought to stop inhumane acts and although it is not a no-kill shelter, they now have to euthanize with a vaccine that puts the animals to sleep (painlessly) within seconds. It costs more money, but was worth the effort and the time it took to show how cruel their choices were. We are now working on a no-kill battle, but it will take a lot more convincing before that happens. There are more humane ways to kill an animal. Yes, it is better to not consume and not kill at all, but to lessen the abuse and suffering is always a better choice. I'm sorry that you don't feel that regulations can make a difference. I saw firsthand that they can. Small steps in the right direction is a better way than saying that it can't make a difference at all.

Like I said, I am not defending any group. I'm just saying that there are more humane choices, and any step in that direction is a good one. You can't hike to the top of the mountain without lots of small steps to get there. It took our nation years to get to be so cruel, and my guess is that it will take many more to get out of it.

Not trying to baffle you. Just showing what it's like from the "awareness" starting point. Positive reinforcement and compassion towards everyone trying to make a change in their lives.

I enjoy all of your posts. I think that you put a lot of needed time and effort into them. I am glad that so many people read them and become enlightened or aware. I also don't want to see people NOT want to become a part of the cause because they are not vegan and this post makes them feel bad about not fitting into this group. There are people that feel that way and have written to me about that. I was just trying to nip it in the bud again, so more don't feel excluded.

Stephanie, you are not one to lecture about veganism versus vegetarianism. You have animals enslaved for your pleasure, that is on par with being vegan. Animals are not ours to eat or use for food production, nor are they ours to keep for our own pleasure.

Typo: The second sentence should say "on par with NOT being vegan".

Just so I understand your last post, you're criticizing an animal activist for rescuing & rehabilitating abused, abandoned & neglected animals?

A well-kept slave is still a slave. A house is just a big cage. Humans were not meant to keep animals as our prisoners.

You're exactly right, Eryn. When I fostered then adopted rescued Boxers, there was definitely a slave in the house. Me.

I guess damned if you help, damned if you don't.

Oh, look at all the fun I missed while I was off dealing with other stressful matters. Fantastic. First, Lisa, thanks for sticking up for me in my absence.

At first, Eryn, I thought you had to be either kidding or trolling. But apparently not. It's remarks such as these from a tiny, tiny minority of AR advocates that lead people not to take the animal rights movement seriously. And oh, have you hit a nerve. I'll have you know, Eryn, that both of the dogs who live with me would be dead if they didn't live with me--I was their last chance--that both are loved and prioritized every single hour of every single day, and that the sacrifices and stress that I've taken on as a result of having chosen to save their lives, Mabel the pit bull's life in particular, are significant, life-changing, and future-altering, and not in good ways. I do not "keep" them for my "pleasure." I love them, yes, and just as I get heartache out of seeing them in pain, yes, I do also get joy and "pleasure" out of seeing them happy--and alive. But I love them and care for them for their sake, not for my own, and at the cost of things very important to me. Maybe you think that they would have been better off killed in a cold shelter or on the streets. I, obviously, disagree.

Michele, we are still nowhere near being on the same page, and perhaps we won't ever be, but I cannot have this same conversation on every post that tries to educate vegetarians among others. I don't have the energy for it. I don't have the time for it. And I don't get paid enough to do it.

People do deserve kudos for the changes and progress they make, but I'm not going to lie or omit facts about what they're still contributing to for fear that it might upset them. That's absurd. If there's something vegetarians (or vegans or omnivores) should know regarding what's happening to animals, and regarding how they're contributing to it, I'm going to tell them. It's not my--or any animal advocate's--job to make people feel good about themselves; it's to advocate for animals, and yes, that involves asking people to look at how they're contributing to animal suffering and death, acknowledge it, and change it. I'm not sure what it is you even think I should do--just pretend there's no cruelty associated with dairy and eggs? Just assume that the animals will understand if I don't speak up for them because I don't want to upset people? Again--baffling.

You are defensively projecting. There's nothing here that "excludes" vegetarians. Pointing out that they're still a part of the system of slaughter isn't "excluding" them. It's simple fact. It's education and information, information that most vegans, for example--many of them once lacto-ovo vegetarians--wish they'd been given much sooner. And it's not wrong or negative for people to "feel bad" about what they're contributing to--that's exactly my goal. I want people to learn and think and, yes, feel bad about the harm they're causing animals, so that they will grow and change.

You have to start somewhere. I just find it a bit hypocritical that you are lecturing about vegetarianism not being acceptable, yet you yourself aren't that far away from that level in your animal rights fight. You're young though, you still have a lot of time ahead of you.

Do you expect her to liberate her dogs on the street? We have domesticated them to be like children who need our care. We can't just dump them now. They're not fit to live in the wild or on the cruel streets where some sicko might torture them to death. The best we can do is give them love and care and treat them like family. Plus, she's not exploiting the dogs for any unnecessary commercial products like farmed animals are. Yes, she's getting pleasure from their company as she said, but they're probably getting just as much from living with her and each other as companions.

What's next? Saying we're enslaving our children by forcing them to live under our roof?

One more point, if most vegans advocated for people to give up their dog and cat family, otherwise compassionate and receptive people would never give a care to what a vegan might say. Do you really think it's a good idea to associate veganism with giving up beloved family members as well?

Stephanie, I think we can agree to disagree. You said we weren't on the same page, but if I am not on the Animal Rights page, then I guess I misunderstood what it meant. I am sorry you aren't getting paid enough, have the energy, or the time. It seems lately that you don't have the patience for it either. I am not getting paid at all in my fight for anti-cruelty and abuse. I don't do it for the money, obviously as most people don't. We volunteer our time and energy and have a passion for bringing awareness to others. I don't think that having a "goal" of making people feel bad in order to do better is really what this is all about. Maybe I misunderstood what change.org was about? I have met a lot of really wonderful like-minded people on this site, and will continue to work on awareness and education, including anti-cruelty towards animals and people, as well as education. We all have a lot going on in our lives. We all have a story. We are all different. If commenting and replying is such a burden to you, then why do you do it? Maybe it's time to shut down the thread to more comments again. Isn't that the easy way out? Delete the opinions or shut it down? (Hang up the phone on someone). 

I appreciate all of the time that people take to write comments and replies. We aren't here because we get paid. Most join because they care. Many people want to feel that their efforts are making a difference. In my eyes, they are. I guess that's why we differ in our opinions. If people just stopped to listen once in a while....

I don't think that I am the defensive one here. You are also assuming that all "vegetarians" consume dairy. You know what assuming does...

Just curious what you feed your pets? If someone buys pet food that is not vegan, aren't they also contributing to the slaughter of innocent animals? Isn't it the same thing? If you play football (with pigskin leather, etc, etc.) I couldn't find any post on the subject. Just wondering. Not defending. Not condoning. Just asking.

Michele-You're not defensive...are you fucking kidding?  And Ms. Ernst feeds her dogs a vegan diet-good try though. Do you understand what it means to consume dairy or eggs? Cuz it kinda seems like you missed the point and are as defensive as meat eaters.

Eryn-Thanks for being such a great example of the "crazy animal rights fanatic." I really do love having to live up to the bar you set.

I don't want to be associated with your level of extremism, so please, so that I can continue to enjoy this site, go sell crazy somewhere else.

Nice vocabulary Brandi. The compassion and understanding just pours out of you. I did not realize upon joining change.org/animal rights that this was a competition of who is the better vegan. (You can interpret that as sarcasm, as that it what it is)

I can't say I wasn't warned. The friends who left and are working for other causes told me about the harsh words and judgements that are passed through here. I admit that I was more defensive for the AR people and said that it wasn't true. I guess I had to learn by posting comments myself that they knew from experience and that they were right.

There are some really nice people here. And then there are mean-spirited ones as well. (More nice than not) So much anger when we are all supposed to be in this together. The "with us, or against us" attitude empowers no one. It teaches nothing.

Seems that fighting among people working for the same cause is senseless. What's the point? Or, maybe we have different agendas after all. I am here for animals, not to recruit vegans. Debates and good conversation is one thing. Name calling and bullying - just not as effective.

Michelle-First, Frack off. My vocabulary is sure as shit more advanced than your understanding of simple concepts...clearly.

Second, the fact that you don't seem to understand that choosing to be a vegan and trying to educate (and for the record, my comment was not about educating, but defending someone who is trying to) is absolutely one hundred percent about the animals is telling. If we're talking about being here for the animals, being a vegetarian is "just not as effective."

I'm not going to get into the middle of the side argument between M and B or address even a fraction of what's being said (though I hope tempers will ease up), but Michele, in response to this--"I guess I had to learn by posting comments myself that they knew from experience and that they were right"--I would like to point out that you've commented on many threads in which most everyone has agreed and where there's been little "fighting" and that this thread went this direction in no small part because of the way you helped redirect it into a conversation about "excluding" vegetarians and because of some of your own remarks. Let's please not pretend that there haven't been multiple parties to this heated discussion.

Dogs are true omnivores, they can get all the nutrients they need from a balanced diet with or without meat.  There are plenty of commercially made vegan dog foods out there, a quick google search not only brings up products but advice.

Cats on the other hand require taurine in their diets, and as true carnivores, they require meat for a healthy life.  As has been discussed several times on this blog & throughtout the blogosphere, vegans (such as myself) who love their cat (such as my boy in the photo) have an ethical, but not impossible, dilemma on their hands.  I only feed him cat food made from one meat (no byproducts), organic grains, etc..  If I can't pronounce the items in the ingredients list, I don't buy it - any more than I don't buy snacks for my son that have more chemicals than anything else in them. 

In the end, there isn't much to think about for me.  I rescued my cat when he was a kitten, I love him, therefore I will provide him with the appropriate care he deserves for a healthy life.  No contradiction here.  Non-harming also means an understanding that "harm" comes in many forms, not just sticks & stones & blades to the throat.

I have deleted the arguably inflammatory off-topic comment that tried to steer this into a conversation about the appropriateness of feeding dogs a vegetarian diet. This thread has gone far enough off-topic as it is. Please let's not begin yet another heated conversation here unrelated to this post.

?????

Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. They are oppurtunistic feeders, so will fill their stomach on what they can, but that does not make them omnivores. If you classify carnivores as only those animals that never eat any plant matter, there would be very few animals that would actually fit that definition.
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison2.html
http://www.pinnaclepetsupply.com/omnivor.htm

A dog's digestive system is not made for breaking down plant matter. Dogs get very little nutrition from plant matter unless it is pureed first; they simply don't break down plant-matter. Feed your dog a couple baby carrots and look at it's poop, you'll find the undigested carrot chunks.

Dogs don't need grain and vegetables. The only reason dog kibbles have grain and vegetables is to hold the kibble together (or sometimes to 'pad' the protein level in low-quality foods if it is lacking in meat). For kibble to keep it's shape, there needs to be a starch. Even grain-free kibbles have starch, they just use potatoes, sweet potatoes, or tapioca.

"I have deleted the arguably inflammatory off-topic comment that tried to steer this into a conversation about the appropriateness of feeding dogs a vegetarian diet."

Hello? I did no such thing! I was responding to the above comments from  Michele McCowan and  Brandi H that were talking about feeding pets a vegan diet.

Oh my god--where does it end? Michele made a remark off-topic to this post. It was part of a larger comment, so I left it. Abby, you then came in and tried to start a whole other conversation on that topic that itself would invariably turn into a heated argument. I don't care if it's not off-topic to a comment--it's off-topic to this post.

I am done with this. DONE. Read the most recent post about the commenting policy. If you wish to  continue commenting on this blog, learn to respect that I'm the moderator here, and when I as the moderator ask that commenters end a subthread, do not just repost deleted comments and continue anyway. My patience is out.

According to Rebecca Remillard, DVM, a Specialist in Veterinary Nutrition:
"Canines are in the order Carnivora, but I think their feeding behaviors are best described as omnivorous. The term carnivore applies to their taxonomic classification, not their feeding behavior. Taxonomically, dogs are members of the order Carnivora, a very diverse group, that includes 12 families of more than 260 species, some of which are herbivorous mammals (the panda). There are three types of feeding behavior (omnivorous, herbivorous and carnivorous) all of which can be found among different members of the order Carnivora." 

Abby-We could post links all day. As a scientist I have come to accept that my childhood ideas that scientists were driven only by the search for knowledge, blah, blah, blah is naive (i.e. creationists and global warming sceptics). My dogs are vegans and they thrive on the diet. I am sure, just as humans, there might be a very small percentage that wouldn't, but the truth is in the pudding (or perhaps in the solid dog poo my greyhound creates on a vegan diet, as opposed to the mess that meat created).

I try to avoid the meat section alltogether because it makes me ill to see the cut up bits of all those once living innocent animals. When will humans learn?

I thank all of you who watched it and were horrified and saddened and devastated by it for telling us that; now I'm not at all tempted to reverse my original decision to steer clear. (Pun not intended.) It's hard to even look at the still photo; makes me want to join A.R. in racing in to save them before they are prodded another step.

Yes, I suppose that each time we sponsor a rescued farm animal we're helping them. And each time we humbly share (by silent example and quiet tale-telling) our joyful journey into the land of peaceful coexistence with our creature kin, we're helping them. And each time we love and pity instead of hate and shut out (whether it's the victims or the wrongdoers), we're helping them, huh, A.R. 

Lovely. Agree with all 10 or so of your points.

Nicely put, Sue. Thanks for the story.

I believe you are correct. I read one of her books before I was a vegan, and I kind of remember her talking about this.

The sad thing is that she's under the illusion that we need meat to live. I remember her very briefly bringing up something about just not eating animals, but she says she gets dizzy without meat. (???)

Dizzy without meat?  Ha.  I probably don't have to point out how many times people have told me they would get "sick" without meat.

The only thing that proves is that they are not eating a balanced diet, and by removing a large (and excessive) amount of protein form their diet, they have no idea how to make up their daily requirements.

B12, I believe, is the only vitamin that humans cannot naturally produce.  And easy source is beef, but an even easier source is (vegetarian) vitamin supplements or fortified soy milk or other food products.  You could also eat dirt where the bacteria that produces B12 lives, but that's not very delicious at all!

"cut out everything in their diet and ate what was left - maybe some vegetables, potato chips, and sugary cereals. Anyone would get sick on that."

HA!  Perfect!  Weird story... I had a friend who said she tried to go vegetarian during Lent one year.  But she gained 10 pounds in those weeks.  I couldn't figure out how the heck she could have done that, but upon closer look, turns out she was eating macaroni & cheese, grilled cheese, eggs every day for breakfast, lasagna - cheese cheese cheese & eggs!  Fat & cholesterol!  Where were the veggies? 

Part of the "fun" of being vegan is experimenting with the subtle flavors of veggies, learning to balance a meal and maybe even trying a few new things you never knew were out there (like... daikon? microgreens?)